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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, rideforever said:


It says:

 

He that does not trust, will not be trusted

 

Trusting is not detachment.

The Indian position of being in

Pure Consciousness, pure empty .. witnessing etc...

Is not Taoism

Because Taoism is like loving the flowing energies

of the Earth and going into them

and then Through them into their energetic origin

to reach the centre

it is a path going through the Tantien

Indian spirituality goes through the centres in the head

This is clearly indicated by the energetic practices

associated in these traditions
 

 

Here is a description of the Heart in KS. You will see it is also about the energies that make up all things.

 

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

 

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

 

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

 

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.

Edited by Tom

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, rideforever said:

On "Detachment"

 

 

Detachment and accepting it are not the same.

They are completely opposite actually.

Detachment is when you stand away from it.

Acceptance is when you go into it.

Going into it means you go into it, it doesn't mean you are observing it, it means your blood goes into it.

They are opposite.

This is the difference between Indian and Chinese paths.

In India they practice observation and awareness, distancing and detaching.

The great value of Taoism is that your blood flows into it.

You go in.

They are very different paths.

Within the structure of the soul this is explained because the Indian paths go UP.

They go up the spine up the chakras, up the kundalini alwyas up to the head.

From the head they practice awareness and detachment type meditation.

But Taoism is a very unusual path.

It goes down.

It flows down to the Tantien, and then further down.

These paths are enlightenments of different parts of the soul.

Some think all paths are the same.

No, they are not.

 

There are various levels of detachment. Sure i could see how one could view mindfulness as detachment. Really it is just the first stage of silence in daily life.

 

Here would be a deeper version of detachment and yet at the same time intimate with all things.

 

The Heart as Embodied Cosmos: Kula  pg. 100

As the Embodied Cosmos that emerges from Siva, the kula is the

grand and complex structure of lived reality.

 

If Siva is the absolute totality, kula is a term that can be applied to

any emergent manifestation from that totality. Kula seems to be applied

on a sliding scale from the largest unit of manifestation to the smallest.

 

Even as Siva creates the very real game of

breaking himself into parts which suffer transformation, division, extinction

and emptiness, he is nevertheless able to maintain himself free of the game

and intact as Siva, all the while taking on the roles required by the game.

 

In the inconceivable enormity of Siva's game, any self-contained

unit - for example, our universe - may be termed a kula. The unit is

self-sufficient precisely because it is a part that is structured out of wholeness.

Since the kula's essential reality is finally that wholeness which it

has bodied forth, every unit, or kula, resonates in identity with every

other structure composed of that wholeness. It is in this way that the

human body, as a kula, resonates in identity with the entire universe.

 

Wherever Siva is present, the

whole is present. If the body is a structure composed essentially of Siva,

then all that is manifested from Siva, including the entire array of universes,

may be found present in the body.

 

This is a great master explaining in detail the concept of Oneness which is also shared in Taoism..

Edited by Tom

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Now, if we are also talking about Buddhism we should discuss the Primordial State. There are 3 aspects but I would really like for you to pay attention to clarity and energy... With energy... Buddhism doesn't have a Oneness aspect like KS does but it does acknowledge that everything is energy.

 

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

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Posted (edited)

Clarity is rarely discussed, but if one is thinking about the sage in the TTC. Clarity, free from obstructions and getting caught up in the local mind is to me what it is referring to. It is how he goes with the flow that is him. It isn't detachment as has been described, but by clearing out and moving beyond the local mind stuff..

Edited by Tom

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Hard to discuss something like clarity, when it is really more the "absence" of something.

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5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yes all these Indian ideas are full of very boastful and absolute words.

It's no wonder Indian words are popular in the West.

Taoism is not like that at all.

 

Indian words like primordial, kula, cosmos, absolute.

Shiva the Destroyer.

Shiva the hashish smoking Destroyer.

 

Taoism talks about fish, and trees, and the earth.

Of gentleness and the valley.

 

In the same way as the Progressives in the West

have blotted out ... many aspects of the culture.

They no longer see men or women,

or Left or Right, it is only their view that is correct.

Your culture or race means nothing.

Nothing is nothing.

 

There is a kind of whiteout.

After these people talk, 

there is a void of meaning.

All the colours removed,

only a grin is left.

 

The same is happening with spirituality in the West.

People think it's all the same.

Thousands of years of growing, so many 

traditions and paths.

So much effort.

 

They keep talking until all that is left is a whiteout.

And a big pile of words.

 

Taoism is not like that.

 

 

Taosim doesn't have terms for things?

 

Chi, Shen, Wu Wei or golden embryo for example? Immortals or Golden Immortals? Beings that fly and do all sorts of things?

 

Traditions doesn't have to be like politics where you have to put down others beliefs and practices.

 

Instead find the beauty in all of them.

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Posted (edited)

Using the thread to post from the Book of the Simple Way as it goes well with the topic of the thread.

 

Pg. 7

 

Quote

For Laotze 'there was but one religion, the Way of Heaven (Tao Tien), and its expression was spontaneous as between the individual and Nature, like "the prattle of a child in the arms of its mother." Before touching upon controversial points contained in the present work, it will be expedient to review some of the leading tenets of the doctrine of the Tao Teh, as revealed in the writings of Chuang-Tze.1

 

"Tao," a term which is said to be equivalent to the Sanskrit Bodh (wisdom or enlightenment), and used by the Chinese Buddhists to express that state, is among the Taotze a mystical term having a twofold significance. It is at once the Supreme Reason, the Logos, and Nature the subject of reason; the Alpha and Omega of all things, representing the " diversity in unity of nature, and the unity in diversity of God."

 

Here, at the outset, we are faced with the antinomial and paradoxical element common to all mystical systems, and more than usually prevalent in pantheistic conceptions such as Taoism is said to be. Yet this unity and diversity are one, and that One is Tao, and Tao is greater than God and greater than Nature, for in Tao both God and Nature are as one.

 

"Before Heaven was, Tao was. Spiritual things draw their spirituality therefrom, while the universe became (by it) what we behold it now. To Tao the zenith is not high nor the nadir low. No point in time is long ago, nor by lapse of ages has It grown old."

 

Laotze makes a distinction between the Supreme Source of all things-Tao the ineffable, and Nature the mother of all things. Tao, the essence of the Universal Spirit, selfexistent, uncreate and eternal, the source of all creations and of all worlds, as of the gods who made and govern them, "is by nature One," says Laotze.

 

"One and universal is Tao, but the first has produced a second and the second a third, and these three are all things. In vain may your senses enquire concerning all these ; your reason alone can frame anything respecting them, and this will tell you that they are only One." 1

 

Edited by Tom

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Posted (edited)

Pg. 8

 

Quote

Tao in this sense seems to correspond to the Parabrahm of the Vedantins, the Ain Suph of the Kabalists, the A thyr of the Egyptians, and the Monad of the Greeks. Laotze says : "A man looks upon God as his father and loves him in like measure. Shall we not then love That which is greater than God?" Hence it appears that in the conception of Laotze, Tao is not God, nor Nature, but comprehends both God and Nature, being the Supreme Essence of both Spirit and Substance.

 

Thus says Laotze :-

" There is an Infinite Being which was before Heaven and Earth. How calm it is, how free! It lives alone and changes not. It moves everywhere, but is not affected. We may regard it as the universal Mother. I know not its name. I call it Tao."

 

Totally unlike the doctrine of Confucius based upon Charity and Duty to one's neighbor, the Taotze recommends the natural expression of inherent virtue, which, as the attribute of Tao, will flow through the mind and develop the qualities of the Soul in their original integrity if its action be unimpeded by the weed-growth of vicious habits or the veneer of worldly consequence. For all personal effort, forcing of faculty, striving after a semblance ?' of that which is already possessed by man through Nature, all Egoism in short, is regarded by the apostles of the Ta as so much waste of energy, leading finally to competition, strife, self-assertior, dogmatism, interference, tyranny diplomacy, and deceit.

 

Edited by Tom

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Posted (edited)

Nice quote. Looking forward to checking that book out. 

 

Traditions are cool, but any tradition I learn about will be seen through my own filter. Taoism, Christianity, Dzogchen - they’re all pointing to my inner world.  

They may explain things differently, but I only have my experiences to compare it to. If I don’t compare the teachings to my own experience and my own life,  it’s just empty concepts.  My interpretation may change over time as my understanding gets deeper, though. 

Edited by FaXin

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7 minutes ago, FaXin said:

Nice quote. Looking forward to checking that book out. 

 

Traditions are cool, but any tradition I learn about will be seen through my own filter. Taoism, Christianity, Dzogchen - they’re all pointing to my inner world.  

They may explain things differently, but I only have my experiences to compare it to. If I don’t compare the teachings to my own experience and my own life,  it’s just empty concepts.  My interpretation may change over time as my understanding gets deeper, though. 

 

I would agree, I think the TTC is a perfect example of how one progresses so does the deeper understanding of it change. I know looking back at some of the things I have written I would disagree with now.

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4 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

I would agree, I think the TTC is a perfect example of how one progresses so does the deeper understanding of it change. I know looking back at some of the things I have written I would disagree with now.

 

Me as well. I also think that is the beauty of the TTC. There are multiple levels of interpretation, as the text is like an open source for the universe. Something like KS is much harder to understand unless you have a background with it. 

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There was a period of time where I only tried to interpret the TTC as It related to martial arts practice :D

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