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About kevincann

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    Enitwetok, Kwajalien

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  1. Jeff- we have been close for more than 5 years. That is the basis of my knowledge of you, not words on a forum. It's obvious to both of us, that this conversation is not productive, as we've both been entrenched in our basic positions for more than 5 years. So I for one, am happy to let things rest right where they are.. just where they were 5 years ago ;-) Kev
  2. Jeff- There is really not much to discuss. Contrary to known history you want to dress up your ego in the form of 'divine beings'. Now I have nothing against forms of this for example this is the same thing that shamans do. Only when they are done tapping the egregore they stop paying it any mind; only a damn ed fool worships a human - created idol. When the ego is abused, due to not understanding what it is and what it's role is in spirituality, you will wind up with a very confused, deluded and harmful form of spirituality. You can't have a rational discussion with someone in the throes of this syndrome. I know, as I too suffered from this syndrome for years. I know that it is extremely difficult to break free from this control collar which religion and spirituality evolved (or were designed in some cases) to place upon devotees of such systems. Early Buddhism was free of the control collar....some forms of tantra and other so-called "left hand paths" are free of the control collar. But for the most part, the more one is intetested in spirituality and religion the more trapped one becomes. It's like a Chinese finger trap. It's understandable that the people who actually know something rarely if ever say something straight up. For example it's pointless to discuss salty crackers with someone obsessed with the idea that they are dehydrated in the desert. Nearly all humans are obsessed with death and their number one goal, whether they realize it or not is to deny death or cheat death or 'transcend death'. This makes them incapable of learning much, until this warping of their mind is healed....and the only way to do this is to understand the role and purpose of the ego and how to work with it properly..... I won't speak for Yogani...but i noticed some time ago, that if one actually finishes AYP and actually learns how to think...that one's ego assumes the proper role. This is just one example....but i must give credit where credit is due... In the entire world, the number of people not trapped by the spiritual chinese finger trap is probably less than one thousand or some such number. I know these posts seem harsh....and disillusioning. I don't enjoy them. Kev
  3. Jeff- Yes I looked up the etymology of the saying 'kill the Buddha..." before I posted. What's funny about Zen koans is they often do point to something real. ..even though they are designed to 'stop the mind'. Jeff- You are so convinced that your world view is correct that it doesn't matter what I say or don't say....pure and total selection bias. As you know..I have 'played in your world' for years....for my own can't say that I haven't walked 100 miles in your moccasins. At some point nearly everyone forgets their initial basic training....because they never mastered it..then you get all this crazy being talk again...just like before they started their path....but now since they can play with energy they now think that their mistaken ideas about being are now valid. ...but they are's just a basic training failure. Yes....infrastructure exists....yes there is awareness as a fundamental part of everything...yes there can be death avoiding games.... But it's markedly different than you can find described in a sutra tantra or other book. When it comes to 'spirituality' nothing true has ever been written down. ..just us rust flawed approximations. ..only a few of the original minds ever got a glimpse of what is true....and by necessity that true glimpse could not be conveyed to another....then over the years got further corrupted. Show me someone who harps on the 'basics' rather than harping on beings and about definitions for purported states of mind....and you will be showing me someone who might actually 'get it'. Imho. Kev
  4. So much for 'if you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him.' Now I know that's not from the sutras or tantras or what not....but that's a good thing of course. ... It slightly amuses me actually...that most spiritual devotees (of more eastern philosophical roots anyway) rapidly learn that they themselves don't actually exist in any permanent or meaningful way...but that the 'self' is more illusion than substance.... Yet these same devotees then commit the gross logical error of fighting for the existence of 'so-called divine beings' which are in actual fact...just larger scale delusions of 'self' created over hundreds or thousands of years by the same exact mechanism that the devotees are now supposedly free from (they aren't). When 'spirituality' is approached incorrectly....the poor tortured ego will indeed play dead for a convince the spiritual seekers that they have 'made progress' or in fact are 'enlightened'. But what happens. that eventually the ego resurfaces in the form of 'higher selves' or divine beings. This is really pathetic. I won't mince words. Now these 'beings' certainly feel real to devotees trapped in this stage of fact these delusions can produce powerful effects....transmit 'light'...transfer visions and thoughts..even make a solid 'thump' be felt when one devotee 'connects' to another.... But this stage of 'accomplishment' is a dead end as are all the systems which don't understand mind, ego, 'spirit', being and all associated concepts...but just compound the thousands of years of incorrect realization and incorrect and harmful spiritual practice. Kev
  5. Jeff- These beings are in fact 'egregores'. Powerful ones mind you. And depending on which one we are discussing...some egregores predated homo sapiens; and these egregores give the impression of being divine --- they are not. What people call 'higher selves' are in fact egregores.... What people call 'souls' are in fact (generally) just poorly formed tulpas. FYI i won't be arguing or defending these words....I really don't care what comforting beliefs someone wishes to entertain. In fact I think that my words could possibly be verified in a scientific lab..... Kev
  6. Jeff- I *am* working on a system of human adulthood.. it's going to be slow going.. lots of testing and experimentation required... It's like re-inventing the wheel a second time from scratch. I can see why people don't want to do this.. the first time around was maddening. *This* system I could discuss with little mysteriousness. ;-) Kev
  7. Jeff- You speak about illusions of the mind..... you speak about nothing to build... these words are representative of one of the two basic wrong approaches. Wrong because either approach will get you 'somewhere' ... but probably not where you actually want to go...and/or think you are going.... Most people don't give 'spiritual efforts' their full if they are fortunate they will end up in some version of human adulthood.. or at least in some pleasant self-delusion. What can be concerning are those with an all-consuming desire....they might discover what's behind door number two....the 'nonhuman door' where they learn about the great life cycle they have unwittingly become part of.... and if they are not prepared for what they learn... they will be destroyed. a way far more gruesome than the way that Jed McKenna s books can destroy. ..a person who is especially passionate/ocd/deluded and won't take no for an answer. There is nothing more unsettling than to learn what you really a manner speaking anyway....though yes...ultimately we are the formlessness which is the essence of apparent form..... But the door to that awareness (for what it's worth) Is not a straight unicorn ride through old dead dude fantasy's frightfully jarring....nothing written in a book could possibly prepare you. And then in a manner of speaking you see it was all for nothing....from a self-centered perspective anyway. So if the 'genuine' spiritual path is like 'this' then I can see why all the fake paths are so popular...they promise that you will turn into a godling/savior/transcendent being... yum! Whether by active or passive or will Wei effort....that is the tasty carrot hanging on the stick ever out of reach.... In many ways I prefer Doug's Wholeness or Yogani s silence..both of which are forms of spiritual adulthood. Jeff- I'll say what I say when I say anyone else... I'm not concerned about satisfying anyone's curiosity on their schedule....I have no obligation (and these are self assigned) other than to be completely forthright as much as possible....and compassionate as much as possible and these are pretty much automatic responses like with most of us here. Sorry about the mysterious for now....i wish it could be otherwise...maybe at some point it will be. Dunno. I can talk all around it I have been... some practices are certainly possible too....if someone actually wanted 'reality' and not sugar coated crap. Some things are better approached obliquely. you can get off the ride before the end if you want to. ;-) Kev
  8. Jeff- I know you hold this view Jeff. It's the old schism between 'so called instant enlightenment' systems such as Zen....with the cleaning of the mirror approach and the hatha/tantric systems which build a metaphysical energy conduit (the diamond body one might even say). Of course both systems are wrong when contrasted that way.... And even more problematic is not knowing 'what enlightenment is'; who becomes 'enlightened' and what role a human life should play in such a process...or even if it has any value for a human at all... and then the whole issue of so-called human adulthood should be understood....and how that relates to the nonhuman portions of the process. People make all these assumptions about 'spirituality and enlightenment' because credible information is so scarce....they are willing to believe almost anything...and assume they want 'some of that'. I'd just love to see more common sense and compassion in the wouldn't that be wonderful? Kev
  9. Jeff- Not forgetting at all my good friend. But universal mind is a tad more challenging subject than one might at first you know...and its such an enticing thing that people fall into love in their search for it...and no maybe never learn common sense at all. Kev
  10. Jeff- Superstitions are created by spreading misinformation from some old dead dudes who never wrote anything down and who probably never even existed. A competent teacher would require basic course work b mastered before spouting metaphysical nonsense that has never benefited even one person...but is in fact the very cognitive trap that needs to be overcome. The Human animal appears to be the only one on Earth who spends significant time creating complex social systems designed to keep them distracted from reality which will rapidly be causing their extinction whether that happens to be metaphysically convenient or not. Step by step learning that doesn't skip the meat and potatoes is certainly not popular in spirituality this is true. I recall stories where a Yoga student would be expected to spend decades mastering one fundamental....but now everything is instant gratification.....with a sense of entitlement to boot. Frankly imho a mentors job is to encourage good study habits and to provide little or no information at all.... the student needs to learn how to create a wheel from scratch....and no amount of theory can replace the hands on struggle which creates 'muscles' and 'positive neural correlates'. Thank goodness this is all hypothetical here and no actual students or teachers are involved. Just some words between friends. ;-) Kev
  11. A friend of mine is always teasing me about being mysterious and a tease. Well gosh there might be a reason for that other than general perversity and contrarian tendencies to which I plead the 5th. Human nature is to say "oh yah I knew that too!" - the Colonels secret sauce...the square root of infinity... how to build a nuclear device from potato doesn't matter the subject... But in the field of math say. can't get away with that...the 'answer' barely matters... it's the ability to do the work that matters....and the temperament and ability to show the work.. then you know you are speaking to a mathematician and not just a memorizer of other people's work. Maybe sometimes a mathematician is really sick of being mysterious and would love to disclose.. but if they are a mathematician worth their salt then they shouldn't. Of course sometimes people just act mysterious to get attention. My old mentor was really infuriating this way....but eventually i did learn to think and to show my work... and that is worth more than all the answers in the world imho Kev
  12. Doug- "However, I also realized fairly quickly - human beings aren't designed to live in such a state" This IMHO is the single most welcome thing you have every posted in my point of view. I've known dozens (hundreds probably) of people who have sought to go on a perpetual spiritual 'drug trip'; in fact I think it's fair to say, that THAT seems to be the goal of much 'new age Buddhism'.. much 'new age Yoga' etc. It's not that the original material is ALL THAT terribly off base (though that can be really true in critical areas like with 'maya'.) but the focus has become to 'escape the human condition' by 'teleporting into eternity' ... 'ascending'... 'resting in the unconditioned mind' whatever you want to call it... it becomes a drug trip to avoid living a relatively normal human life. (sure walk on water if you really must.. and you know how.. but who gives a rip really? Take a boat for goodness sakes). Here's the concept that SO many people seem to miss --- probably the single most important concept that has ever dawned on me- It's not OUR JOB to 'be this' or 'be that' or 'be the ground of awareness' .. those jobs are ALREADY TAKEN.. it's OUR JOB TO BE US. That's our job.. not to be a 'Buddha' or a 'Christ' or a 'Master' -- those jobs for the most part ARE the MAYA.. NOT THE GOAL; as those people as we fantasize about them... never existed like the fantasies say... and even if they did.. that was THEIR JOB -- not ours. The 'world' wants Doug and Kevin to be in it.. I mean, we are here, right? IF all the Doug's and Kevin's try to be someone else all the time.. then how does 'the world' 'scratch the itch' of ALSO wanting to be Doug and Kevin? Someone has to wash the dishes.. and that be US. For now anyway. 'Cosmic Awareness' is like a 'pointer'... it only needs to point to 'one thing once'... sure... it's possibly to crash OTHER PEOPLES PARTIES.. by 'merging with them' so to speak..... but that's not SUPPOSED to be a PERMANENT or necessarily DESIRABLE thing. We are supposed to be US. Sure we can play at being other people.. or at being 'one with the substrate'.. but we are just playing... that's not actually a desirable state of necessity... THERE IS NO NEED FOR SPIRITUAL 'EVOLUTION' all the jobs are already filled! Once you realize this.. you become free from the vast majority of ego-filled spiritual posturing and BS. IMHO. If I never say anything else.. if nobody every hears anything else I ever say.. THIS particular response is the one I'd wish people to understand... the most important thing I could ever say. IMHO Kev
  13. Doug- Thanks VERY MUCH for this . If there is one thing I like to harp on, it's 'maya'. I think the 'new age' has done serious harm to some concepts that once served a genuine educational purpose; especially 'maya'. I think that you and I and some of those 'old dead dudes' would agree, that 'maya' is not actually all the 'planes of existence'.. which includes what most people would call 'reality'. I think this interpretation has harmed more people in more long-term ways, than any single concept ever, other than 'sin' of course, which is the single worst, most wrong concept every created.. Maya is none other than conditioned thinking, plain and simple. As a matter of fact, EVERYTHING is 'real', even 'maya' in that conditioned thinking does exist.. but it blankets the pathways of clear perception with BS. Now an animist (which ain't a bad perspective) might argue that the 'lesser states of cosmic mind, suffer from 'maya' which causes simulation-like illusory 'planes of existence'. This is just sloppy thinking about the laws of physics... it takes a valid concept 'conditioning' and turns it into something toxic. It's an over-extension of a valid principle... Once you believe in 'planular maya' then if you see a baby crying, there is no need to pick it up.. if you see someone bleeding.. no need to administer first aid.. what is real (everything) becomes denigrated into a fantasy.. and the whole 'healthy' purpose of existence (whatever you might think that is.. but it's simple that's for sure) becomes all crapped up. Now, in yoga and other systems, where you 'see' 'stuff' that you should ignore during 'meditation' that is often called 'maya' or 'impurity' as well..which may be actual conditioning.. or may be actual partial perception of reality.. or simple CONFUSION. Now CONFUSION is seeing a part and mistaking it's significance.. but that doesn't mean the part is not valid.. not 'real'. It simply means ones concepts are not up to the task of properly describing.. the brain in taking it all in.. which is inevitable.. but this is not MAYA.. but mere CONFUSION. It still has a real basis, one way or another. IMHO Kev
  14. Doug- Well I like your conclusion. 'Spirituality' is in fact a wretched word for anyone who wishes to live a genuine life.. it has all this unreal baggage associated with it. Now as to the "problem with oneness" and quantum mechanics.. well there's more to it than just that.. science hasn't been able to unify quantum mechanics with the standard model.. with general relativity or with even the 3 dimensions of space. You say that everything is one... sure.. I happen to concur.. Hierarchically one.. When you walk into a wall, refusing to believe in it.. you get a bump on your head... and this doesn't mean that 'maya' has overcome your ability to experience 'oneness'. This means that oneness doesn't fall on it's belly and let you scratch it.. just because you have an unsubstantiated theory that you should be able to do so. I in fact find that sensation of absolute oneness.. where all matter becomes transparent or dissapears completely.. where time falls away.. where everything becomes orgasmic.. not conducive to a useful life. Been there, done that, got the T- shirt --- not impressed. One in fact senses many echo's ... like in a giant holographic bee hive.. in a certain state.. and how would you or I or anyone else KNOW that one is not 'trapped' in just one of those cells? That an infinite number of them.. with higher holographic integrity don't in fact exist? You can't know.. And all the self-deifying pseudo-rational-spiritual garbage concepts put together can't give you the certainty that you have broken past even ONE such barrier. Just cause you now experience 'oneness' or 'beyond' don't mean you got the key to the executive bathroom. I tell anyone who wants to have 'cosmic consciousness' --- perhaps you should aim lower.. you might not actually enjoy learning your actual place in ;'reality'. ;-) Thanks for participating Doug. Kev
  15. Doug- Jeff- Thanks for your input. From my perspective the only 'maya' which exists is words like maya, but that is the subject of another discussion in another folder ;-) Kev
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