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Shiva sutras - And the relative approach...

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I am copying this post of Jeff's from the Bums. 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40320-shiva-sutras-and-the-relative-approach/?hl=%2Bshiva+%2Bsutras

I thought it might be interesting to discuss the Shiva sutras and what they state and imply relative to approach and what is possible.  The sutras are sort of naturally broken into three sections and paths relative to one's "potential".  I thought we might start with the "highest" one and see what everyone thought...

 

3.1. ātmā cittam

Individual being is the mind entangled in the wheel of repeated birth and death.

3.2. jñānaṁ bandhaḥ

(For this limited individual), all knowledge is bondage.

3.3. kalādīnāṁ tattvānāmaviveko māyā

Being unable to possess the undifferentiated knowledge of the thirty-one elements, you live in those elements, from kalā to pṛithvī (earth), which are the expansion of the energy of illusion (māyā śakti).

3.4. śarīre saṁhāraḥ kalānām

You must make all the circles (kalās) in your body enter one into the other from gross to subtle.

3.5. nāḍīsaṁhāra-bhūtajaya-bhūtakaivalya-
 bhūtapṛithaktvāni

The merging of the movements of breathing, controlling the gross elements, diverting attention from all objective senses and directing it towards the center of the movement of the breath, and removing your consciousness from the grip of the elementary field, …

3.6. mohāvaraṇātsiddhih

… these powers are brought into existence when a yogi’s consciousness is covered by the energy of illusion (māyā).

3.7. mohajayād anantābhogāt sahajavidyājayaḥ

After conquering the field of illusion (māyā) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness.

3.8. jāgratdvitīyakarah

The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.

3.9. nartaka ātmā

The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

3.11. prekṣakāṇīndriyāṇi

His own organs are spectators.

3.12. dhīvaśātsattvasiddhiḥ

By means of a supreme intellect filled with awareness of the self, this yogī experiences that he is actually acting.

3.13. siddhaḥ svatantrabhāvaḥ

The state of absolute independence is already achieved.

3.14. yathā tatra tathānyatra

This (absolute independence) is the same in the external world as it was in samādhi.

3.15. bījāvadhānam

Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.

3.16. āsanasthaḥ sukhaṁ hrade nimajjati

Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.

3.17. svamātrānirmāṇamāpādayati

Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.

3.18. vidyā ‘vināśe janmavināśaḥ

When his knowledge of the Self is permanently established, then birth (and death) are gone forever.

3.19. kavargādiṣu māheśvaryādyāḥ paśumātaraḥ

In the world of letters, words and sentences, the eight energies of the Lord, who are the mothers of beasts (take control and hold him).

3.20. triṣu caturthaṁ tailavadāsecyam

The fourth state (turya) must be expanded like oil so that it pervades the other three: waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

3.21. magnaḥ svacittena praviśet

The yogī who is merged in his self must enter completely with his mind filled with great awareness.

3.22. prāṇasamācāre samadarśanam

When his breath begins to slowly move out toward the external state, then he also experiences the pervasion of God consciousness there.

3.23. madhye ‘varaprasavaḥ

He does not experience the state of God consciousness in the center of these three states.

3.24. mātrāsvapratyayasaṁdhāne naṣṭasya punarutthānam

When a yogī, in coming out from samādhi, also attempts to maintain awareness of God consciousness in the objective world, then, even though his real nature of self is destroyed by the inferior generation of self-consciousness, he again rises in that supreme nature of the self.

3.25. śivatulyo jāyate

He becomes just like Śiva.

3.26. śarīravṛittirvratam

His virtuous behavior is the maintenance of his body.

3.27. kathā japaḥ

Ordinary talk of life is the recitation of mantra.

3.28. dānamātmajñānam

His only purpose for remaining in his body is to impart knowledge to others.

3.29. yo’vipastho jñāhetuśca

The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others.

3.30. śvaśaktipracayo’sya viśvam

For him, this universe is the embodiment of his collective energies.

3.31. sthitilayau

This universe is the expansion of his energy in objective impressions and in the dissolution of those impressions.

3.32. tatpravṛittāvapyanirāsaḥ saṁvettṛibhāvāt

Although he is determined in creating, protecting and destroying the universe, even then he is not separated from the real state of his subjectivity.

3.33. sukhaduḥkhayorbahirmananam

He experiences his joy and his sadness just like an object, with “this-consciousness” separate from his being.

3.34. tadvimuktastu kevalī

Separated from pleasure and pain, he is established in real seclusion.

3.35. mohapratisaṁhatastu karmātmā

The yogī whose God consciousness is destroyed by this state of illusion is dependent on his action.

3.36. bhedatiraskāre sargāntarakarmatvam

He drives away the field of differentiated perceptions and enters into a new world of God consciousness.

3.37. karaṇa śaktiḥ svato’nubhavāt

The power of creation is the experience of every individual.

3.38. tripadādyanuprāṇanam

Emerging from turya, insert the absolute bliss of that state into the waking, dreaming and deep sleep states and they will become one with that state of turya.

3.39. citta sthitivaccharīra karaṇabāhyeṣu

This awareness of God consciousness should not only be infused in that state where one’s mind is established in one-pointedness but it should also be infused in the establishment of his body, in his organic actions and in the external objective world.

3.40. abhilāṣādbahirgatiḥ saṁvāhyasya

Due to the insatiable and insistent desire to fill the gap (in his nature), his flow and movement are toward the objective world, not subjective consciousness, and so he is carried from one birth to another.

3.41. tadārūḍhapramitestatkṣayājjīva saṁkṣayaḥ

All desire vanishes in that fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature. For him the state of being a limited individual has ended.

3.42. bhūtakañcukī tadā vimukto bhūyaḥ patisamaḥ paraḥ

For him, the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment, he is absolutely liberated, supreme and just like Śiva.

 

The text raises many interesting thoughts and ramifications.  Implying in 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others.  And things like the universe is his energies in 3.31.  Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25.
 
Any thoughts?

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http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40320-shiva-sutras-and-the-relative-approach/?p=669429

 

Here is another translation by Georg Feuerstein 

 

Book III

The [phenomenal] self (âtman) is the mind (citta). (3.1)

[Finite] knowledge is bondage. (3.2)

Mâyâ is nondifferentiation (aviveka) about the principles [of existence (tattva)], such as [limited] activity (kalâ). (3.3)

Dissolution of the parts (kalâ) [should be achieved] in the body. (3.4)

Comments: According to Kshemarâja’s commentary, the kalâs in question are the various ontological principles or categories (tattvas), such as the elements, the subtle elements, and the mind.

Dissolution of the currents (nâdî) [of the life force], conquest of the elements, isolation from the elements, and separation from the elements [are accomplished through yogic contemplation]. (3.5)

[Paranormal] power (siddhi) [results] from a veil of delusion (moha). (3.6)

Through the conquest of delusion, through infinite enjoyment (âbhoga) [of the Real, there comes about] the conquest of spontaneous wisdom. (3.7)

[The enlightened adept is always] awake; [for him] the second one [i.e., the world of duality] is a ray-of-light. (3.8)

Comments: The world is a “ray-of-light” (kara) because the enlightened adept experiences it as identical with the divine Reality.

The self (âtman) [of the enlightened adept is like] a dancer. (3.9)

Comments: The meaning of this obscure aphorism is that enlightened adepts, though they may engage in all kinds of activities, are only play- acting so to speak. They are not really involved in their actions, because they have ceased to identify with the limited body-mind and its functions.

The inner self (antar-âtman) [of the enlightened adept is like] a stage. (3.10)

Comments: This aphorism, which continues with the dramatic metaphor of sûtra 3.8, emphasizes that the enlightened adept is pure witness. He is constantly and continuously aware of the contents of his own mind, which no longer has the power to delude him.

The senses are [like] spectators. (3.11)

Through the force of [transcendental] insight (dhî), power over sattva [is obtained]. (3.12)

Comments: The term sattva, or “realness,” stands for the luminous aspect of Nature. It is one of the three primary constituents of phenomenal existence. The compound sattva-siddhi also can be understood in the sense of “perfection of luminosity.” Both senses are applicable.

[Thus] the condition of independence (sva-tantra) [or liberation] is accomplished. (3.13)

As [the adept accomplishes transcendental independence, or liberation] in [regard to] this [body], so [does he accomplish perfect independence in regard to] all else. (3.14)

Attentiveness (avadhâna) to the “seed” (bîja) [i.e., the Source of the world, should be cultivated]. (3.15)

He who is established in the seat (âsana) [of the transcendental Consciousness] easily plunges into the “lake” [i.e., the ultimate Reality]. (3.16)

He effects creation by his own measure. (3.17)

Comments: Since the enlightened adept is one with the divine Reality, he or she also is the absolute creator of everything.

While wisdom prevails, the elimination of [future] birth [is certain]. (3.18)

Maheshvarî and so forth, [residing] in the classes [of letters of the alphabet] beginning with ka, are the mothers of “beasts” (pashu) [i.e., fettered beings, but they have no power over the enlightened adept in whom wisdom blossoms.] (3.19)

The Fourth [i.e., the ultimate Reality] should be poured like oil into the three [conditional modes of consciousness, namely waking, dream sleep, and deep sleep]. (3.20)

He should enter [into the Fourth] by immersing himself with his mind (citta). (3.21)

Upon the equalization of the life force (prâna), [there comes about] the vision of sameness. (3.22)

Comments: When the breath is no longer erratic and the body’s energies are harmonized, the mind too is balanced. Then everything reveals itself as the same One.

In the interim, [there occurs] the generation of inferior [states of consciousness]. (3.23)

Comments: The yogin, who has not yet fully and stably realized the ultimate Reality, experiences intermittently lower states of consciousness, which lack full awareness of the fundamental sameness of all things.

Upon [ecstatic] union between the self-concept (sva-pratyaya) and objects (mâtra), [the yogin brings about] the reemergence of the vanished [vision of sameness]. (3.24)

He becomes like Shiva. (3.25)

[Retaining] the functioning of the body [for the sake of others is his only] vow. (3.26)

[His] conversation is recitation. (3.27) Self-knowledge is [his] gift [to others]. (3.28)

And he who is established in Avipa is a cause of [higher] knowledge (jna). (3.29)

Comments: In Kshemarâja’s tenth-century commentary, the difficult compound avipa-stha is explained as “established in the protector (pa) of animals (avi),” that is, “established in those who protect the finite beings.” Thus, it is taken to refer to the Goddesses that preside over the letters of the Sanskrit alphabet.

For him the universe is an extension of his [innate] power. (3.30)

The maintenance and absorption [of the universe are likewise an extension of his innate power]. (3.31)

Despite such activity [as the maintenance and absorption of the universe, there is] no discontinuity owing to [the enlightened adept’s] condition as witness. (3.32)

[The adept] considers pleasure and pain as external. (3.33) Free from these, he is indeed alone (kevalin). (3.34)

However, the dynamic [or karmic] self [i.e., the unenlightened personality] is afflicted by delusion. (3.35)

Upon the eclipse of differentiation [based on the unenlightened mind, the adept acquires] the capacity for [bringing forth] other creations. (3.36)

The power of creation [is well established] on account of one’s own experience [in dreams and meditation, etc.]. (3.37)

[There should be] animation of the three states [of unenlightened consciousness] by the principal [State, which is Reality itself]. (3.38)

As with the [various] states of consciousness, [there should also be animation by the ultimate Reality] in regard to body, senses, and external [objects]. (3.39)

For the “confluent” (samvâhya) [unenlightened individual, there is constant] extroversion (bahir-gati) because of desire. (3.40)

Comments: Driven by desire, the consciousness of the unenlightened person habitually flows out toward the external world. This externalizing flux of attention is captured well in the rare word samvâhya, denoting the individual who “flows together” with objects.

For him who is in the condition of being rooted in that [Fourth, or ultimate Reality, there results] termination of individuality (jîva) owing to the ending of that [desire for contact with objects]. (3.41)

Then, he who has the elements for his covering is released, mighty, supreme, and the same as the Lord [i.e., Shiva]. (3.42)

The connection with the life force (prâna) is natural. (3.43)

Comments: The meaning of this aphorism appears to be that even though finite life depends on the connection of the life force with a particular consciousness, in the case of the enlightened adept, this is not an intrinsic limitation. In fact, prâna is a manifestation of the ultimate Reality. Ultimately, prâna is the universal Life itself.

Through constraint (samyama) [i.e., through ecstatic identification with] the innermost center of the nose, how [can the ultimate Reality not be realized] in the left, the right, and the central [channels of the life force]? (3.44)

Comments: This is another obscure aphorism carrying a wealth of esoteric information. The innermost center (antar-madhya) of the nose (nâsikâ) is really the core of the life force or consciousness. By practicing successively concentration, meditation, and ecstasy relative to that subtle central point, the adept is able to abide as the ultimate Reality, regardless of whether the life force flows through the left channel, the right channel, or the central channel. In Tantrism and Hatha-Yoga, these channels through which the life force circulates are respectively known as idâ-nâdî, pingalâ-nâdî, and sushumnâ-nâdî. The Shiva-Sûtra uses the word saushumna for the last, which is the most important, since it is the conduit for the awakened kundalinî-shakti, the psychospiritual power that brings about a total alchemical transmutation of the human body-mind.

[In the case of the yogin] let there be repeatedly the opening-and- closing [of the vision of sameness]. (3.45)

Comments: The phrase pratimîlana is a technical expression of Kashmiri Shaivism. Here rendered as “opening-and-closing,” it literally means “counter-closing.” It refers to the high yogic art of seeing the ultimate Reality, Shiva, both within oneself and in the outer world. This practice comprises both subjective ecstasy (as epitomized in the closing of the

eyes, or nimîlana) and objective ecstasy (as epitomized in the opening of the eyes, or unmîlana). This condition is otherwise known as spontaneous ecstasy, or sahaja-samâdhi. 

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Hi Tom,

Actually, the highest section of the Shiva Sutras is the first section, followed by the second, with the third being the lowest. Each section is connected with the means for its attainment. The thinking was that some practitioners could benefit from starting with a more comprehensive approach, if they were able. It's actually a very, pardon the pun, enlightened, approach. It recognizes the dynamic and individual nature of human perspective and abilities - as opposed to the "one size fits all" approach that many traditions attempt.

And so, the first section of the Shiva Sutras is connected with Sambhavopaya, the Divine Means, the second section with Shaktopaya, the Empowered Means, and the third section which you posted above, is connected with Anavopaya, the Individual means.

One easy way to note that this is the case is that the first sutra of each section denotes the sense of self from the perspective of that given level (Divine, Empowered or Individual), as shown below. Please note: I've used Swami Lakshmanjoo's direct translations for consistency, with my own comments on the line below each listing. Below that, I've provided links to all three sections of the Shiva Sutras.

1.1 Caitanyamatma - Supreme consciousness is the reality of everything.

Or "original awareness is the self - changeless awareness is our true nature".

2.1 Cittam Mantrah - Mind is mantra.

I see this perspective as being key - because it's the bridge (or the wall) which orients us toward the gateway to our inherent wholeness via the divine means, or keeps us bound and drawn toward individual means -- depending upon what we hold in our minds, believe or don't believe, reinforce or don't, orient our attention toward or away from, and so on.

Everything in our minds is, indeed, mantra.

31. Atma Cittam -  Individual being is the mind entangled in the wheel of repeated birth and death.

"We are who we think we are" - until we see past that conditioned view - which is ultimately the only thing preventing realization of our inherent wholeness.


Shiva Sutras Section 1 - Divine Means

Shiva Sutras Section 2 - Empowered Means

Shiva Sutras Section 3 - Individual Means

 

I hope this is useful overall, and I'll be interested in any further thoughts you may have on all this.

 

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Thank you Doug,

I think I will start by answering Jeff's questions...

The text raises many interesting thoughts and ramifications.  Implying in 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others.  And things like the universe is his energies in 3.31.  Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25.

First, 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others... I don't think he is really talking about giving knowledge to another person. When a Master is able to clear away the obstructions it can seem like something is given or being inserted but it is really a clearing away of that which we already are.

This is very much in line with what we do in our light practices. "things like the universe is his energies in 3.31." is being one with that energy and with that realization when another being connects, that energy is able to be shared which is what clears away the obstructions. Another method is a doing which is more transmission based which is possible as well but letting the light do what needs to be done seems the best method.

"Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25."

This is key and I believe a big difference from KS and other systems. One can be like Siva or be your own Siva, not a cessation into.

Any thoughts?

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12 hours ago, Tom said:

Thank you Doug,

I think I will start by answering Jeff's questions...

The text raises many interesting thoughts and ramifications.  Implying in 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others.  And things like the universe is his energies in 3.31.  Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25.

First, 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others... I don't think he is really talking about giving knowledge to another person. When a Master is able to clear away the obstructions it can seem like something is given or being inserted but it is really a clearing away of that which we already are.

This is very much in line with what we do in our light practices. "things like the universe is his energies in 3.31." is being one with that energy and with that realization when another being connects, that energy is able to be shared which is what clears away the obstructions. Another method is a doing which is more transmission based which is possible as well but letting the light do what needs to be done seems the best method.

"Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25."

This is key and I believe a big difference from KS and other systems. One can be like Siva or be your own Siva, not a cessation into.

Any thoughts?

The knowledge given is the experience of being that energy. The by product is the removal of obstructions to become a larger container and or to become capable of residing in that energy. To ultimately become that energy. Or in the experience of it. Depending upon how you wished to look at it.

Edited by running

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For me the way to it was from doing things to experience it. My brain would remember the experience to become more able to see what god really is. And then from that since i knew more. I became to know what i was looking for. And more able to accept it in me when i experienced it again. Which makes for a longer next experience. In turn bringing it into my body and mind more thoroughly. For me my brain learned what it was. How to find it. And how to let it make a home in me.

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3.39. citta sthitivaccharīra karaṇabāhyeṣu

This awareness of God consciousness should not only be infused in that state where one’s mind is established in one-pointedness but it should also be infused in the establishment of his body, in his organic actions and in the external objective world.

3.40. abhilāṣādbahirgatiḥ saṁvāhyasya

Due to the insatiable and insistent desire to fill the gap (in his nature), his flow and movement are toward the objective world, not subjective consciousness, and so he is carried from one birth to another.

3.41. tadārūḍhapramitestatkṣayājjīva saṁkṣayaḥ

All desire vanishes in that fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature. For him the state of being a limited individual has ended.

3.42. bhūtakañcukī tadā vimukto bhūyaḥ patisamaḥ paraḥ

For him, the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment, he is absolutely liberated, supreme and just like Śiva.

 

I find this to be very interesting. Any thoughts?

Edited by Tom

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4 hours ago, Tom said:

3.39. citta sthitivaccharīra karaṇabāhyeṣu

This awareness of God consciousness should not only be infused in that state where one’s mind is established in one-pointedness but it should also be infused in the establishment of his body, in his organic actions and in the external objective world.

3.40. abhilāṣādbahirgatiḥ saṁvāhyasya

Due to the insatiable and insistent desire to fill the gap (in his nature), his flow and movement are toward the objective world, not subjective consciousness, and so he is carried from one birth to another.

3.41. tadārūḍhapramitestatkṣayājjīva saṁkṣayaḥ

All desire vanishes in that fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature. For him the state of being a limited individual has ended.

3.42. bhūtakañcukī tadā vimukto bhūyaḥ patisamaḥ paraḥ

For him, the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment, he is absolutely liberated, supreme and just like Śiva.

 

I find this to be very interesting. Any thoughts?

Really good! Cant think of anything else to say. Other than thanks for sharing on this forum.

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Shiva Sutras Section 2 - Empowered Means

 

2.1. cittaṁ mantraḥ

Mind is mantra.

2.2. prayatnaḥ sādhakaḥ

(For such a yogī) pauseless effort brings about his attainment of God consciousness.

2.3. vidyāśarīrasattā mantrarahasyam

The secret essence of mantra is establishment in the body of the knowledge of oneness.

2.4. garbhe cittavikaso’viśiṣṭa vidyāsvapnaḥ

When a yogī’s mind is satisfied with the expansive body of illusion then he falls in the world of differentiated perceptions and his knowledge of being is just like that of ordinary living beings.

2.5. vidyāsamutthāne svābhāvike khecarī śivāvasthā

The pure knowledge of God consciousness effortlessly rises and this state of Śiva is realized as one with the state of khecarī.

2.6. gururupāyaḥ

The master (guru) is the means.

2.7. mātṛikācakrasambodhaḥ

(The disciple attains) the knowledge of the wheel of the hidden mother (Mātṛikācakra).

2.8. śarīraṁ haviḥ

The establishment of I consciousness on the body becomes an offering in the fire of God consciousness.

2.9. jñānamannam

(For such a yogī) differentiated perception is his food, or knowledge of his own nature is his food.

2.10. vidyāsaṁhāre tadutthasvapnadarśanam

Although he is established in God consciousness in samādhi, yet not being able to maintain awareness, after a short time he enters into the dreaming state.

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Anybody know whats 2.10 saying? Kinda sounds contradicting but perhaps i dont know what he means by dream state.

Edited by running

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13 hours ago, running said:

Anybody know whats 2.10 saying? Kinda sounds contradicting but perhaps i dont know what he means by dream state.

2.10. vidyāsaṁhāre tadutthasvapnadarśanam

Although he is established in God consciousness in samādhi, yet not being able to maintain awareness, after a short time he enters into the dreaming state.

It is basically saying, that you can't hold the state. You go super deep in consciousness, don't yet really have the conscious energy flow necessary to support it, so you fall asleep (sort of pass out). Think of it like you hiking in the mountains, but have not yet gotten used to the altitude and can't breathe, so your body-mind shuts down to recover.

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16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

2.10. vidyāsaṁhāre tadutthasvapnadarśanam

Although he is established in God consciousness in samādhi, yet not being able to maintain awareness, after a short time he enters into the dreaming state.

It is basically saying, that you can't hold the state. You go super deep in consciousness, don't yet really have the conscious energy flow necessary to support it, so you fall asleep (sort of pass out). Think of it like you hiking in the mountains, but have not yet gotten used to the altitude and can't breathe, so your body-mind shuts down to recover.

Hi Jeff & All,


I generally agree with your (Jeff's) explanation, and would add "dreaming state" has a specific meaning in Kashmir Shaivism, per 1.9 - "Svapno' Vikalpah" - "Dreaming is mental form"; "thinking is dreaming", etc. (Svapno refers to the dream-state, Vikalphah to thought-forms or mental constructs).

So, it's basically saying that the practitioner can't maintain freedom from attachment to thoughts or other mental form that is the key quality of samadhi, or "God consciousness".

Other than that, Jeff's statement "It is basically saying, that you can't hold the state. You go super deep in consciousness, don't yet really have the conscious energy flow necessary to support it" summarizes the dynamic, and what's being said, exactly, I'd say.

As an interesting (to me, anyway ....) side note:

Each section of the Shiva Sutras contains an interesting mix of the benefits of the associated means or path (Divine, Empowered and Individual, for sections 1, 2 and 3, respectively) - as well as the potential pitfalls. - which can be helpful for anyone working with any of those means, and/or seeking to integrate experience and understanding.

 

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Thanks Jeff and Doug for the wonderful informative responses!

When i went to india the joke there was that he or she slept through the the whole thing and got it. Lol.

 I believe from what i have seen and in my own development that when like merging to energies beyond what one is accustomed to it most often puts one to sleep. Or makes one tired feeling.

I get it most often  going through new mexico. I drink extra coffee.  I guess not so much anymore as im in New Mexico and havent notices it lately. It seems at least in my experience always associated with the crown and or above that. 

Edited by running

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20 minutes ago, running said:

Thanks Jeff and Doug for the wonderful informative responses!

When i went to india the joke there was that he or she slept through the the whole thing and got it. Lol.

 I believe from what i have seen and in my own development that when like merging to energies beyond what one is accustomed to it most often puts one to sleep. Or makes one tired feeling.

I get it most often  going through new mexico. I drink extra coffee.  I guess not so much anymore as im in New Mexico and havent notices it lately. It seems at least in my experience always associated with the crown and or above that. 

Yes, the quote is talking about silence/stillness, but your point about strong energy flows is the same. Just looking at it from the other side of the coin. :) 

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Hi Running, Jeff & All,

Agreed. I think part of the nuance (that 2.10 may be referring to) could be: even after energy has stabilized to the point where someone can remain in samadhi for a while, and without falling asleep -- attachment to thoughts or other mental forms (i.e. visions, etc.) can still come up cause attention to focus - and thus, pull someone out of samadhi.

Once someone gets even more stable in samadhi, that won't happen any longer (the thoughts or mental forms may come up, but the absorption - the samadhi - remains, and there's no longer the specific distraction / focus of attention that pulls someone out of samadhi).

It's all a process for everyone - and slightly different for everyone. The Shiva Sutras is one of the few texts I know that acknowledges that dynamic (the "slightly different for everyone", and that even at advanced stages of practice, there are things than can be destabilizing) - which is one of the many reasons I like it (very "real world", and highlights what people can expect to experience at every level of practice and experience).

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7 hours ago, Doug said:

Hi Running, Jeff & All,

Agreed. I think part of the nuance (that 2.10 may be referring to) could be: even after energy has stabilized to the point where someone can remain in samadhi for a while, and without falling asleep -- attachment to thoughts or other mental forms (i.e. visions, etc.) can still come up cause attention to focus - and thus, pull someone out of samadhi.

Once someone gets even more stable in samadhi, that won't happen any longer (the thoughts or mental forms may come up, but the absorption - the samadhi - remains, and there's no longer the specific distraction / focus of attention that pulls someone out of samadhi).

It's all a process for everyone - and slightly different for everyone. The Shiva Sutras is one of the few texts I know that acknowledges that dynamic (the "slightly different for everyone", and that even at advanced stages of practice, there are things than can be destabilizing) - which is one of the many reasons I like it (very "real world", and highlights what people can expect to experience at every level of practice and experience).

 

I wonder if there are many different similiar things. What i was thinking of is when it gets stronger than the mind and or body can handle. Then it becomes like an intoxicant with sleeping properties. Its becomes harder to think or do things cause it over powers u. I seen this happen to myself and others when it deepens. For me in the case of a geographical area. For someone else i seen it from an energetic transmission. Which also happens to me to sometimes now that i think about it. Sometimes not. Or sometimes the opposite in that im more energetic in it.

 

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I have some questions, I hope you don't mind if I basically go through the definitions and ask about them.

Starting with these three:

3.8. jāgratdvitīyakarah

The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.

3.9. nartaka ātmā

The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

 

If 3.7 was similar to emptiness of self. Would 3.8 be talking about residing at a light level?

Then would 3.9 and 3.10 be talking about starting to realize self is universal mind? 

Edited by Qibrush

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47 minutes ago, Qibrush said:

I have some questions, I hope you don't mind if I basically go through the definitions and ask about them.

Starting with these three:

3.8. jāgratdvitīyakarah

The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.

3.9. nartaka ātmā

The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

 

If 3.7 was similar to emptiness of self. Would 3.8 be talking about residing at a light level?

Then would 3.9 and 3.10 be talking about starting to realize self is universal mind? 

Hi Qibrush,

3.8 is referring to the fact that (per 3.7) one the illusions of limitation are released, even the regular waking state is experienced as "another formation of his real nature of consciousness". The wholeness of non-duality - Siva-nature - includes everything, including the waking state.

Starting from 3.1, this section of the Shiva Sutras, which addresses the Individual Means, describes the limitations experience by a practitioner who misunderstands his or her true nature. 

3.4, 3.5 and 3.6 generally describe what must be done (the illusion of fragmentation must be dropped, by releasing identification with the concepts that cause someone to think they are limited), and how to do it - with the result being described in 3.7 - "After conquering the field of illusion (māyā) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness. "

And so, 3.8, 3.9 and 3.10 describe what one's experience is like without the obscuring concepts that create the illusions of limitation.

It is experienced that the waking state is not actually limited, but is "another formation of his real nature of consciousness". (3.8)

It is experienced that, with concepts of limitation released, that one's true self is unbound, universal consciousness - the ever-present, original awareness that is the field in which we all experience every moment - just consciously, now, per 3.9.

 

Then, 3.10 - 3.14 are actually kind of a sub-section of their own, as follows, describing how, with conceptual limitations absent, the perception of the relationship between self and "other" change in ways that are very different from the experience of the false, egoic concept-self.

 

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

 

3.11. prekṣakāṇīndriyāṇi

His own organs are spectators.

 

3.12. dhīvaśātsattvasiddhiḥ

By means of a supreme intellect filled with awareness of the self, this yogī experiences that he is actually acting.

 

3.13. siddhaḥ svatantrabhāvaḥ

The state of absolute independence is already achieved.

 

3.14. yathā tatra tathānyatra

This (absolute independence) is the same in the external world as it was in samādhi.

 

Thus, at the level of daily life, we experience that daily life continues - but experienced as natural wholeness, rather than as fragmented, due to the conceptual limitations we previously identified with.

The direct experience of wholeness (non-duality) which was previously experienced only in meditative samadhi, is now experienced on an ongoing basis, in regular living.

I hope that's useful - if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask, of course!


Doug


 

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34 minutes ago, Doug said:

Hi Qibrush,

3.8 is referring to the fact that (per 3.7) one the illusions of limitation are released, even the regular waking state is experienced as "another formation of his real nature of consciousness". The wholeness of non-duality - Siva-nature - includes everything, including the waking state.

Starting from 3.1, this section of the Shiva Sutras, which addresses the Individual Means, describes the limitations experience by a practitioner who misunderstands his or her true nature. 

3.4, 3.5 and 3.6 generally describe what must be done (the illusion of fragmentation must be dropped, by releasing identification with the concepts that cause someone to think they are limited), and how to do it - with the result being described in 3.7 - "After conquering the field of illusion (māyā) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness. "

And so, 3.8, 3.9 and 3.10 describe what one's experience is like without the obscuring concepts that create the illusions of limitation.

It is experienced that the waking state is not actually limited, but is "another formation of his real nature of consciousness". (3.8)

It is experienced that, with concepts of limitation released, that one's true self is unbound, universal consciousness - the ever-present, original awareness that is the field in which we all experience every moment - just consciously, now, per 3.9.

 

Then, 3.10 - 3.14 are actually kind of a sub-section of their own, as follows, describing how, with conceptual limitations absent, the perception of the relationship between self and "other" change in ways that are very different from the experience of the false, egoic concept-self.

 

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

 

3.11. prekṣakāṇīndriyāṇi

His own organs are spectators.

 

3.12. dhīvaśātsattvasiddhiḥ

By means of a supreme intellect filled with awareness of the self, this yogī experiences that he is actually acting.

 

3.13. siddhaḥ svatantrabhāvaḥ

The state of absolute independence is already achieved.

 

3.14. yathā tatra tathānyatra

This (absolute independence) is the same in the external world as it was in samādhi.

 

Thus, at the level of daily life, we experience that daily life continues - but experienced as natural wholeness, rather than as fragmented, due to the conceptual limitations we previously identified with.

The direct experience of wholeness (non-duality) which was previously experienced only in meditative samadhi, is now experienced on an ongoing basis, in regular living.

I hope that's useful - if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask, of course!


Doug


 

Thanks for answering Doug, I do have questions :) .I always have a little hard time with different terminology and relating it to what I understand, so if you could, can you use the words universal mind and light level in your description? For example, what you described at 3.8,3.9 sounds like residing to me. 3.12, to me seems to be talking about a differentiation almost of the surface self and a universal residing now. Where the universal consciousness is ever present and now, and at the surface there is the acting. 3.14 also sounds like residing but now a more clear version of it. What do you think of what I said?

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1 hour ago, Qibrush said:

Thanks for answering Doug, I do have questions :) .I always have a little hard time with different terminology and relating it to what I understand, so if you could, can you use the words universal mind and light level in your description? For example, what you described at 3.8,3.9 sounds like residing to me. 3.12, to me seems to be talking about a differentiation almost of the surface self and a universal residing now. Where the universal consciousness is ever present and now, and at the surface there is the acting. 3.14 also sounds like residing but now a more clear version of it. What do you think of what I said?

Hi Qibrush,

I'm in somewhat the same position :) .... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the terms "universal mind" and "light level" - though once I do understand, I can probably equate them with the equivalent terms in Kashmir Shaivism.

Are those terms you know from a certain tradition? Or terms you may have discussed with Tom and/or Jeff, or others here? If so, maybe they can help "translate" - I'm just not familiar with those specific terms.

 

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20 hours ago, Qibrush said:

I have some questions, I hope you don't mind if I basically go through the definitions and ask about them.

Starting with these three:

3.8. jāgratdvitīyakarah

The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.

3.9. nartaka ātmā

The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.

3.10. raṅgo’ntarātmā

The player is the internal soul.

 

If 3.7 was similar to emptiness of self. Would 3.8 be talking about residing at a light level?

Then would 3.9 and 3.10 be talking about starting to realize self is universal mind? 

Hi Qi,

I would also mostly agree with what Doug has said, but one way to think about it at a practical level is...

that 3.8 is saying that the waking state is really the same thing as mediation.That there are not really differnt states and that is just an obstructed view of mind (but not really talking about light level at this point). 3.9 is saying that the local self (dancer) is really ultimately the same as universal self. Or in your terms you could say that local mind is a subset of universal mind. And 3.10 is saying that this "higher player" is inside you (or already part of you). Some other traditions would call it your inner heart/golden child/Buddha nature.

Best, Jeff

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18 hours ago, Doug said:

Hi Qibrush,

I'm in somewhat the same position :) .... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the terms "universal mind" and "light level" - though once I do understand, I can probably equate them with the equivalent terms in Kashmir Shaivism.

Are those terms you know from a certain tradition? Or terms you may have discussed with Tom and/or Jeff, or others here? If so, maybe they can help "translate" - I'm just not familiar with those specific terms.

 

Hi Qi/Doug,

Doug - Qi is mixing some terms from the Lankavatara sutra (Buddhism) and light level is sort of slang used by some of the people in chat. 

Qi - 3.11 is saying that one starts to realize that the inside is really the same as the outside. Or local stuff maps to universal. 3.12 is saying that as you step up and start to notice the "universal mind" level you begin to notice most responses are autopilot responses based locally stored fears and issues. That it is "acting" and not actually the deeper you. 3.13 is saying that once you have realized this you have "cracked the Local Bubble of self" and it is only a matter of time. This might be what you would call light level. 3.14 is saying that this new "state" is really the same as what you had always experienced, just without all of the local "acting" issues and fear stuff. And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind.

Best, Jeff

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hi Qi/Doug,

Doug - Qi is mixing some terms from the Lankavatara sutra (Buddhism) and light level is sort of slang used by some of the people in cha

Qi - 3.11 is saying that one starts to realize that the inside is really the same as the outside. Or local stuff maps to universal. 3.12 is saying that as you step up and start to notice the "universal mind" level you begin to notice most responses are autopilot responses based locally stored fears and issues. That it is "acting" and not actually the deeper you. 3.13 is saying that once you have realized this you have "cracked the Local Bubble of self" and it is only a matter of time. This might be what you would call light level. 3.14 is saying that this new "state" is really the same as what you had always experienced, just without all of the local "acting" issues and fear stuff. And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind.

Best, Jeff

This last part of what you are saying.

And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind."

can I also say this is residing? Seeing past all the layers or levels and realizing that it is all the same, that self is really just residing in now?

20 hours ago, Doug said:

Hi Qibrush,

I'm in somewhat the same position :) .... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the terms "universal mind" and "light level" - though once I do understand, I can probably equate them with the equivalent terms in Kashmir Shaivism.

Are those terms you know from a certain tradition? Or terms you may have discussed with Tom and/or Jeff, or others here? If so, maybe they can help "translate" - I'm just not familiar with those specific terms.

 

I'll try defining what I mean. Maybe we can find a middle ground or you can tell me what you think and what equivalent there is. When I say light level, I think that's a little hard to define but I mean a deeper level in which there is just knowing and being things. There isn't anything to see or feel, just intent and knowing. I also feel that universal mind and what I mean by light level are similar because at a light level where there is just being, that is also universal mind to me. Meaning that I can realize that me and you are the same or a river outside is the same as me and you. It feels the same, just one continous piece of self. That's what I define as universal mind, being and being with everything naturally. 

 

Here is also my take of the next three. Please tell me your opinions on these.

3.15. bījāvadhānam

Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.

3.16. āsanasthaḥ sukhaṁ hrade nimajjati

Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.

3.17. svamātrānirmāṇamāpādayati

Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.

 

I think 3.15 is talking about being naturally aware of the energy of universal mind at all times.

3.16 - Maybe it is talking about being able to go deeper without any real effort, as if you are moving a hand.

3.17 - Now talking about using the energy of the universe to create anything with intent.

Edited by Qibrush

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33 minutes ago, Qibrush said:

This last part of what you are saying.

And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind."

can I also say this is residing? Seeing past all the layers or levels and realizing that it is all the same, that self is really just residing in now?

...

Yes, you could say that would be residing in the moment. With clear mind and no worrying about the past or projecting into the future.

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22 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hi Qi/Doug,

Doug - Qi is mixing some terms from the Lankavatara sutra (Buddhism) and light level is sort of slang used by some of the people in chat. 

Qi - 3.11 is saying that one starts to realize that the inside is really the same as the outside. Or local stuff maps to universal. 3.12 is saying that as you step up and start to notice the "universal mind" level you begin to notice most responses are autopilot responses based locally stored fears and issues. That it is "acting" and not actually the deeper you. 3.13 is saying that once you have realized this you have "cracked the Local Bubble of self" and it is only a matter of time. This might be what you would call light level. 3.14 is saying that this new "state" is really the same as what you had always experienced, just without all of the local "acting" issues and fear stuff. And that normal daily living is exactly the same as the clarity of the highest meditation, and that different states is really just an artificial view from the perspective of "local" self/mind.

Best, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your "translation services". :) Your explanations sound right to me - meaning - it seems we see these sutras in essentially the same way, and are just using different words to describe what they're saying - which, hopefully, will be helpful to Qibrush and others.

 

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