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Guest Experientialknowing

The Lords Prayer

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Guest Experientialknowing

Hi Jeff this is my favorite version, to me there is no other prayer more Holy, nor beautiful may We get your translation of it line by line? I have posted mine elsewhere but will bring it over later. Thank you.

When Jesus was asked by a disciple how shall we pray, Jesus replied:

Our Father who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread,

and forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us,

and lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.

[The 1928 BCP adds: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.] Amen

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Hi EK,

Looking at the Jesus's words in the Lord's Pray sounds like a great idea to me. How about if we go line by line and maybe some others may join us...

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”


Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.

What does everyone else have to say about the first line...?

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Hi Jeff,

 

I generally agree - "Our Father who art in heaven" in different phrasing could be "Our source, which is within" - the "our" being important because it points to the reality that true source is not individual.

 

Regarding "Hallowed be the name" - the word "Hallowed" comes from the Old English root for holy or whole ... and so, that line could also be given as "Whole is your name".

 

And what is a Name, but the energy or form by which something is known or designated?

 

And so "Our Father who art in Heaven; hallowed by thy name" could be:

 

"Our source which is within, whole is your name (energy, form)."

 

As in: when we are in conscious touch with source, and with our true nature as source - we experience wholeness.

 

My interpretation, anyway.

 

Thanks for starting the "line by line" discussion here -- it should be interesting.

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Guest Experientialknowing

I am not a Christian, just a lover of Christ, I am not religous as no religion has adequately explained anything, for that matter I am not well educated on the Bibile, I am not a New Age person nor an Eastern Devotee of any kind, I am a Lover of God and making mistakes.

 

Some may call me on the carpet and say ah yes but what about all the writing on Kriya you have done. To this I would say so what? I gave the world the experiences of one person, for whom Kriya is to do, does that make me a labeled belief creature?

 

No.

 

Preamble over.

 

Yes but what if we take away the modern intellectual conditioning of looking at it in this manner, looking at it as if it has to have a hidden only known by the clique of the most wise, nice, sanitized, generic and clean upset no one exclude no group politically correct neutered new age influenced interpretation?

 

Jesus certainly was not concerned with making the Romans nor the Pharases comfortable with his message, so to make it comfortable now really seems terribly wrong.

 

What if we are not God? Hmmm then what?

 

Sometimes a tomato is just a tomato.

 

What if? hmmmmmm.................

 

What if I wrote from the heart and ignore the human desire to be found likable by my fellows, to be considered wise?  What then would I write? How would I write it? Well it would have to come from the heart.

 

In my heart the non-rational mind the emotional intuitional feeling being it means this to me.

 

Our Father who art in heaven = thou who art the beginning and the end and all things in between the creator of all things manifest and un-manifest, that I can ever understand or perceive and those which I can. My creator the ultimate authority of all things the one to whom I bare allegiance to and bow with bended knee and belly to the floor with Love. The one whom can never be put in words nor be understood by the mind of man the awe and the wonder and most deserving of Love. I am thine oh Lord do with me as you will. May your will for me be mine as well. I love you

 

Our Father: ​I have 3 brothers, 2 of which are by our mutual sire, when referring to him, with them I say our Father. When referring to Father when speaking to my brother by a different sire I refer to him as your Father. Still in every instance we are referring to a separate unique Identity. I do not believe Jesus was mincing words nor lacing them with hidden meaning, because doing so with the disciples ( those willing to be disciplined by him ) would not make good sense. The disciples and the one doing the disciplining speak plainly to one another otherwise there can be no meaningful disciplining and teaching. Couched language and hidden phrases strikes me as reinterpretation lead by fear or not liking that which is being said. If I say come here.  I mean for you to come here, I do not mean to be interpreted in any pandimensional way.

 

So to me Our Father: means the Father the sire the sovereign the one who is in charge and is our mutual benefactor from whom we mutually came from. I am not God, God is God. I came from God and by that alone can I claim kinship, some like to say we came forth as oil poured from a lamp and return to become one in this oily puddle again but that does not ring true either, many like the notion of one-ness & unity but that also rings false.

 

who art in heaven: Where is Heaven? to say it is here on earth is not correct this earth is many things to many people to the wealthy of good health sound mind and fortunate environs with good companionship most certainly this is heaven, to the poor of bad health not so much. 

 

who art in heaven: To say Heaven is a state of mind is also incorrect, but it is getting closer as one can become attuned to certain frequencies, realms dimensions, harmonics call it what you will and perceive from said perspective while being perfectly here and now but these are relatively close to the individuals current existence frequency, harmonics call it what you will, Heaven well that is really different.

 

By contrived means of sadhana these are made familiar and accessible even after sitting like a pretzeled up corpse just tune that dial, get out there and cut that grass, go to work, drive that vehicle run your daily pantomime. All can be done from many places if you will and does not require a church, a Yoga Mat etc....

 

A king does not dwell in the same environs as a worker nor the rich the poor nor those in power with the disenfranchised.

 

To my experience there is a unified field one can experience and be part of and there are likely more layers frequencies dimension etc.. than this mind can ever hope to describe. The Sadhana of my choice is called Kriya and there is a term called the OMKARA it is a dimension of experiential being that goes beyond the sense and the mind, but there are also parts, layers frequencies gradations of it that are perceptible to the mind and can be experienced with it and one does eventually live from it awake or asleep.

 

To my thinking no matter what ones mind finds most tasty or the ear most pleasant to hear call it the OMKARA, call it dark matter, call it a quantum field the Astral Realm, the causal realm, the Kingdom of God explain it however you will it is my opinion this is where the notion of unity comes from and in this sense it is certainly correct as that is the profound felt feeling.

 

so Heaven is a place separate from Earth separate from my own existence and exists regardless of my consent, perception or participation. Heaven is likely right here right now as are many other frequencies, gradations, vibratory levels etc.. and is likely the underlying what ever I do not have a name for that all of creation that is perceivable and known and knowable right at this very instant is not.

 

​So we have a named seperate individual identity that stands on it's own merit regardless of the observer, and this individual is beyond all conception or mental understanding, which is why we are concealed to approach with love as this is our only way to do so. So to know God by Love not reason of flawed mental apparatus always dependent on it is like this or like that to describe a thing but never directly experience it ever without comparative analogy.

 

We have a place named Heaven where this individual who is knowable only by Love dwells but we are also told God is every where and in all things. From this we can rest assured that Heaven like God who dwells there, is not understandable either it would be like trying to tell a two dimensional being that can only perceive in two dimensions that there is a third, comprehension is impossible.

 

Hallowed be thy name.= with awe and wonder and love I consider thy everlasting eternal being you who have given me free will and with it I  choose you the most holy of the holy while your creation is truly a marvelous wonder I choose the giver of the gifts over the gifts themselves and desire only to found pleasing by you, by the merest mention of you all my being is given and and poured back into you from whence it sprang.

 

Hallowed be thy name: The name is a trigger, pull the trigger a bullet is struck a chemical event occurs and the rest goes without saying. There is no more holy revered feeling than that of love, nothing is greater than a feeling, for a feeling a person will abandon all reason and do the unthinkable.The most powerful and best feeling of all is love as it is the best of all things knowable to humans. I do not mean possessive romantic Love but do not exclude it either as it has to start getting in a person from somewhere has to have some start.

 

Love of God is when I think of God and there is a reverberation in every nerve of this body as this physical nervous system does it's best to match frequency with that which the trigger describes because deep in the core of each cell that which enlivens this otherwise food this dead meat knows it's source.

 

God is so moving that the heart swells and the eyes water and it feels as if the energy rushing up my spine will blow the lid off the top of my head as I am taken along for the ride and part of this is the cessation of thought of which the mind is nothing more than that going beyond feeling into that which leaves witness stunned, humble and ever eager to get on inch closer if that is all you can ever do to go further and reach where that love is trying to go.

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Thank you Doug and EK for sharing your insights. They are very helpful. Willpower, glad you are enjoying the thread. Feel free to join us with your perspective.

Moving on to the next section...

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Any thoughts?

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Guest Experientialknowing

Thy kingdom come. = That which is everything permanent everlasting good and Loving, where those made wise by you and have found your favor do dwell.

 Thy will be done. = Not only may thy will be done but may this I recognize it and doing so do not rebel but submit to thy wisdom and loving care your reasons are beyond my feeble comprehension and recognizing this willingly and lovingly wish to become an agent of your will, for without being found pleasing to the eyes of the lord this existence has no reason no purpose and no sanctity worthy of continuance, yet I am flawed and will sin in the eyes of the lord may thy forgiveness be upon me.

On earth as it is in heaven =  Oh Lord I am blinded by my disease the worst among them is forgetfulness by being in this vessel here on this earth where you have placed me to learn, where I have yet to grow up enough to be fit for the company of Jesus and the redeemed I living in the ignorance of the kingdom of I whom have forgotten the kingdom of heaven beseech the oh Lord to make known to me the will of the king and his kingdom of heaven where all the good the true and the faithful do know thy will and follow it in loving desire and the wisdom I lack and those like me here on earth do lack. For then the earth will be a part of the kingdom of heaven as well and not the kingdom of I.

From a different perspective:

Thy Kingdom come: The kingdom may only be entered by those who love God may only be known by those who love God by which their being has transformed resonating in God. This is the coming of the kingdom of God and the Knower of God by love a citizen of said kingdom.

The will of the Lord or a Lord is observed in his Kingdom.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

The will of the Lord is known by the citizens of the Kingdom, the one in earth life knows not the will of the Lord only the law, when by Loving The Lord thy God with all of ones heart and mind and soul one comes to resonate in love with God in divine vibration sypatico and then known is the will of the Lord intuited while on earth in earthly incarnation. Then the will of the Lord is done on Earth as it is in heaven, for as you become the work of his will is automatic.

As a man loves his wife so he becomes one with her and her will is made known to him.

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Sorry, I have gotten behind on this thread...

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

To me this line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)

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Thanks for the nice words...

Moving on... What are everyone's thoughts of...

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

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Guest Experientialknowing

Just call me Mr. Literal but to me bread means sustenance and daily refers to a period of time so it might be saying allot to us that which we need to survive and asking no more.

 

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us is a bit more difficult.

 

This could be interpreted as asking for Karma or justice or that we get what we give in return which is manipulative and can not be it because a Law does not require asking for it to be in effect it just is because it is part of the structure of things like the law of gravity does not require belief to operate nor does it have to be asked for or recognized even to operate as it does.

 

What I think it really means we who are in ignorance need to realize everything is God and what we really need to realize not just conceptulize but really know it, most of all is that you Jeff are not separable from me EK and that being the case then how may one trespass on another to begin with?

 

Although unique and aware we are somehow connected as is everyone else in some manner we are all of the same body somehow.

 

For example lets say you are eating something and you bite your tongue or your cheek shall the tongue or cheek seek vengeance on the teeth for the hurt caused by the trespass? Who would take up a hammer and knock their own teeth out?

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I would mostly agree with you on this one, but a few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

 1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Any new thoughts on the topic?

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Guest Experientialknowing

In yogic terms prana.

Mouth of God in certain Kriya lineages is referred to as the medulla area where prana can certainly be felt moving into the body and spine, in those who are of a certain stage from the Fontanel as well but this has a more refined frequency where as from medulla it is and can be quite strong.

Edited by Experientialknowing

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Lead us not into temptation = Do not lead us into temptation. It occurs to me that God would not do such a thing so then whom is it we are praying to at this point our own conscience? 

 

Are we asking ourselves to remember the correct path or be reminded and therefore delivered from evil = flesh after flesh mentality.

 

Kind of confusing.

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Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning. :)

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Ah so let me try putting it this way.

 

1. God is.

2. What God is, is not only above but has nothing to do with the lowley flesh seeking flesh of animal mentality mankind.

3. Therefore Animal mankind must rise up above it and get nearer to God frequency which while above all energy energy itself a refined form of matter is still a closer affinity construct even as light is to a brick.

4. By doing so via prayer which is a spirtual practice or sadhana then as one aligns thaat which we are more closely with God. Temptation or trials which have import for flesh after flesh Man / flesh after flesh Woman and are of flesh after flesh mankind, likewise have no import for God after God Man / God after God Woman. Because this kind activly alighns with God and his interests become theirs as well.

 

Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven...... hmmmmm.

 

To be crude a light being would find a rainbow delicious but a meat suit would find a slim jim more appealing. Neither would enjoy the others snack, nor consider it, one as such.

 

A yogi is the second most ignorant human being in creation only flesh after flesh mankind is more ignorant in idetification with that which they are not. Still this is a transitional state of being that is a step foreward atleast.

 

The ignorant yogi raises their frequency of cohabitation identification with a body by maintianing their center mast of attention in the head and visiting the lower centers drawing his life force body up from the lower centers bringing their frequencies  into the higher and thereby aligning them with the Godly qualities or vibrational frequencies before revisiting them with fresh pure water from the source.

 

At first this is not so easy for many as the frequencies of the lower centers cause some disruption in the awareness, in time though things smooth out and one just naturally finds themselves operating from the higher centers and they feel like home.

 

An analogy if you will like in the case of light the lower frequencies of Infra red are so far removed from ultra violet that the two may never meet as they are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

 

Infra red has to do with things of that specific spectrum such as heat.

 

Ultraviolet a higher vibrational frequency which is the beginging of ionizing may be lowered by interaction with lower vibrational matter and then infrared phenomina results but left on their own without interaction each remains in its respective realm which has nothing to do with the other untils some interaction takes place.

 

Both are examples of higher frequency or refined matter.

 

Matter and energy are the same thing just particles vibrating at a different frequency. I speculate and theorize that what everything is manifesting on and through is what science likes to call dark matter I prefer to call it transparent and it is that which makes up the majority of the empty space of matter. 

 

You know the old saw that table in front of you is not really solid, it is mostly made up of empty space.

 

Oh yeah then why can I not put my hand through it?

 

Answer equals the transparent matter that makes up the majority of the volume of space in your material hand and that material table could care less concerning the particles bound together at specific distances by mutual affinity that make up your apparent arm and that appaerent table.

 

The paticles that make up your arm  have not somehow captured transparent space nor encapsulated it, nor have the tables.

 

It does not remain connected to the particles of what constitutes your body rather your particles are moving through this transparent space or it through them. Transparent space is the screen if you will your body and this universe a projection upon it.

 

Actually it may be more accurate to consider transparent space as an all penetrating liquid the atomic paticles of the fish are suspended in. Now imagine the tiny, tiny particles of the matter that make up the fish they never touch not one atom has ever touched the other always always there is some small distance between them what is in that small space?

 

Answer the transparent matter. What is the fish swimimming in then? Answer same thing transparent matter.

 

What are we that exists like this but are not this?

 

Would it not be amazing to discover we are actaully the transparent matter? Would it not be amazing to consider that which has misidentified itslef with the particles swimming in it are nothing more than transparent matter that has ossilated? the very witness is transparent matter? Would this not satisfy unity all are one?

 

So the particles and there mutualy binding affinities are that which can not occupy the same place in time and space on the, in the canvas or screen of transparent space.

 

Like attracts like. And higher sources of thermal energy always migrate to the area of lower portential. Heat always moves towards cold not the other way around. From higher potential higher vibrational frequency to lower.

 

Whatever it is we all are is something like this I suspect.

 

In fact I will take this a bit further and say that which we are interacts with all of this but in no way is actuall any of this.

 

In the case of the Yogi how can he bring the lower vibrational constitutes to the higher in the first place? Does this not contradict the law of thermodynamics? As higher goes to lower, not lower to higher?

 

So this tells us out true state is neither higher nor lower. But we come down from the higher to the lower to raise the lower up. Not the other way around. In fact it might be argued our entire existance is that of identification with either higher or lower potential states.

 

It then follows we are neither.

 

So then it is all about what we become accustomed to which frequencies are found more palatable to that which we are and it apears the suffering and ignorance are the domain of the lower frequencies IE: Flesh after Flesh.

 

This then tells me, this is the method by which the light body Jeff talks about is built.

 

Here is some information to make better sense of what has been typed.

 

http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/energy/prin.html

Edited by Experientialknowing

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Hi EK,

 

I see your original premises a little differently...

 

1. God is.

2. What God is, is not only above but also includes the lowley flesh seeking flesh of animal mentality mankind. Everything is of God.

3. One must clear away all of the mental issues and fears, which are stored in the energy body.

4. Trials in life help to highlight our issues and fear.  Our reaction to them (like with anger) show us what we need to work on.  Forgiving ourselves an others is a great way to do it.

 

One does not "build" a light body... You get it for free, by clearing away the crap  (automated ego stuff). :)

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Guest Experientialknowing

Yep I like your number 2 it is what was actually meant but did not get typed.

 

Hmm Number 3 sounds good but how would you recommend doing it any good practices? 

 

Ok so maybe I am getting something confused here with the Bhuddist concepts. Somewhere someone was building a light body. 

 

Is what you are saying then, that the light body was always present and that the crap so to speak or mental issues and fears just needed to get removed from it in order to perceive it, to be it?

 

Somehow that does not track though, I see that as a part of it but not the whole enchilada.

 

To me it seems that awareness needs to change partly by a process of removal of the evolutionary stuff collected along the way via multiple incarnations like survival instincts such as instinctive violence towards a perceived treat real or imagined.

 

The other part seems to be actually moving ones awareness from lower states of vibration to higher frequencies even if that means going into areas where eyes have yet to be developed to see.

 

For example I can start out with a white paint brush and if I dip it in indigo ink and remove it It will become a little blue, after many years will not the brush that started out as white completely take on the color of the place it has visited so many times? Will this then not be a change? 

Edited by Experientialknowing

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Yep I like your number 2 it is what was actually meant but did not get typed.

 

Hmm Number 3 sounds good but how would you recommend doing it any good practices? 

 

Ok so maybe I am getting something confused here with the Bhuddist concepts. Somewhere someone was building a light body. 

 

Is what you are saying then, that the light body was always present and that the crap so to speak or mental issues and fears just needed to get removed from it in order to perceive it, to be it?

 

Somehow that does not track though, I see that as a part of it but not the whole enchilada.

 

To me it seems that awareness needs to change partly by a process of removal of the evolutionary stuff collected along the way via multiple incarnations like survival instincts such as instinctive violence towards a perceived treat real or imagined.

 

The other part seems to be actually moving ones awareness from lower states of vibration to higher frequencies even if that means going into areas where eyes have yet to be developed to see.

 

For example I can start out with a white paint brush and if I dip it in indigo ink and remove it It will become a little blue, after many years will not the brush that started out as white completely take on the color of the place it has visited so many times? Will this then not be a change?

Hi EK,

I think we may just be saying similar things, but just with different words...

Regarding practices, there are various techniques and approaches. Happy to discuss and maybe it would be good to start a thread with a discussion of what is useful at various "stages", but I think it would be of general interest and lost in a Lord's Prayer thread.

Some traditions talk about building a light body, but in my opinion that description is both misleading and self limiting. As you mentioned, it is more like we are self aware blobs of light/awareness in ultimate light/awareness. Or you could say that we are children of God in God. Issues, fears, karma, past life stuff is stored as energy "crap" is our "pure" basis in God. If one clears away (or drops) the "crap" they begin to notice their "natural" state.

After noticing the light nature beyond the local body-mind, it becomes harder to notice obstructions at the universal mind level and believe that they should "build a light body" and transfer their consciousness to this new "form". While such a thing is possible, it is more the path of a Taoist "immortal", and is not the approach of someone on the Buddha or Christ path.

Many (Yoga) traditions consider life like nothing but a movie. These traditions lead to simple cessation. Primordial traditions see it more like a video game. As clarity increase, your choices in the game increase. After a while you learn some "cheat codes". The immortal path is trying to build a super character that can jump around in the game. The path of a Buddha is to learn the source code and sort of become the game. Ultimately upgrading, creating new options or even building a new game.

Hope that is helpful (and not more confusing). :)

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Guest Experientialknowing
Regarding practices, there are various techniques and approaches. Happy to discuss and maybe it would be good to start a thread with a discussion of what is useful at various "stages", but I think it would be of general interest and lost in a Lord's Prayer thread.

 

 

Ok Please join me at the new topic called Jeff & Riju Lol just kidding. Traditions and Destinations.

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And the final line...

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen

Obvious... Or anything interesting here...?

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